Windows 8, WPF VNext, SL5, Prism?

Topics: Prism v4 - Silverlight 4, Prism v4 - WPF 4
Jun 16, 2011 at 12:10 PM

With the interwebs all abuz about the coming Windows 8 and how WPF and Silverilght are dead, it would be nice if we had some clarity from the Prism team.  Since there IS going to be a WPF vNext, and Silverilght 5 is currently in beta, and VS2012 is in the pipeleine, there will be a need for a Prism VNext to match these.  What are the plans?

I dont need dates, or a feature set, yet, just a commitment that the P&P team will continue to support and enhance Prism through the next release or two of the technologies that we are using and have built major systems with.  I will need a version of Prism that builds and works against all of the next versions of these things.  Even if it has no enhancements.  Can I rely on you guys to provide it?

Though the world thinks that the technologies we use are the walking dead,  I will continue to use them for the next few years, and need P&P support for them.  Dont become like the WPF Toolkit, which actually is dead IMO. 

And when all becomes clear on Windows 8, we expect the P&P team to have a story for us as to how Prism is going to apply to it.  I have a hard time understanding how I can build an app in HTML5 and JS that has the same functionality as some of the Prism apps I have built.   But I am willing to listen.

So please start working on the story, because we will all be asking for it as the ./Build conference comes closer and more info gets revealed on the future of the Client.

Please? And thanks for what you have provided so far with Prism

pmont

Jun 17, 2011 at 7:13 PM

Thank you for your inquiry about the patterns & practices roadmap for the Windows 8 platform.

Future plans will be published after the Microsoft BUILD event (http://www.buildwindows.com/) in September. 

Have a great day,

Karl

Jun 17, 2011 at 11:51 PM

I will be back in september with the same questions.   Hopefully there will be someone here with the answers.

BTW, you do know that the WPF Toolkit doesn't build against .net 4.0, right?  Hopefully Prism will not suffer the same death by ignoring that the WPF Toolkit has gone through.  Why wont MS man up and at least get it to net 4.0?  

Have a great day.

pmont

Jun 24, 2011 at 8:19 PM

KARL,

iT WOULD BE NICE TO SEEmICROSOFT MAKE  A REAL COMMITMENT TO PRISM. BECAUSE YOU HAVE MADE SUCH A REALLY WONDERFUL PLATFORM  

YOU SHOULD VERY PROUD OF WHAT YOU HAVE ACCOMPLISHED!!

 FRANKLY IF PRISM DIES I WILL BE LEAVING SILVERLIGHT DEVELOPMENT     I  LOVE YOIUR IDEAS ON MVVM, N-TIER DEVELOPMENT and yes Prism is alot more than this

with it's custom navigation capabilities, you can tell I am a big fan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!     

AND I  DO WISH THAT YOU WOULD PROMOTE THIS MORE. I   FEEL PRISM SHOULD BE A PART OF SILVERLIGHT AND ITS TOOLKIT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!       

http://karlshifflett.wordpress.com/2011/06/14/project-silk-drop-11/   HOWEVER WHAT MAKES US CONCERNED ARE POSTS LIKE THIS. Are you planning to

 

iT WOULD BE NICE TO LET PEOPLE KNOW THAT YOU ARE PLANNING A NEW AND IMPROVED OF PRISM FOR SILVERLIGHT 5 AND POSTS THESE IDEAS OVER THE INTERNET

What can we do as developers to make prism and silverlight more popular? How can we convince Microsoft to make a real commitment to PRISM AND SILVERLIGHT???

Karl, I just wished you had told me (Bill)  The next version of prism will be bigger and better and will be released in january 2012 in time for silverlight 5  

Please pass on these thoughts on to microsoft....THank you....       

 

  

Jun 24, 2011 at 8:34 PM

Bill.

Thank you for your kind words on Prism, they are very much appreciated.

Project Silk is guidance for building ASP.NET MVC applications that have interactive and immersive UI's.  This has nothing to do with Prism or Windows 8.

As far as promotion, Prism has tens of thousands of downloads and the Prism team is conducting a 3 day Prism, WPF, MVVM training event in Boise, ID next week.

As far as future plans go, they will be published after the Microsoft BUILD event (http://www.buildwindows.com/) in September.

I'll pass your comments on to the patterns & practices leaderhip.

Have a great day,

Karl

 

Sep 15, 2011 at 1:20 PM

Karl

It's september, //Build/ is in full swing, Windows 8 is out of the shadows, .net 4.5 has been announced and the enhancements shown (http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms171868(v=VS.110).aspx ).  The latest c# is announced with the ASYNC keywords, and all in all there is a bunch of new stuff on the horizon to soak up and understand.   While WPF and Silverlight's long term roadmap is in doubt, I believe it is time to start the conversation of what PRISM is in a windows 8 and beyond world, from a near term and a long term persepctive.  And what role P&P will play in that future. 

Enterprise developers need a roadmap that lasts more than 1 year or one near term release to be able to schedule and build applications that have a life cycle measured in years instead of months and LOC counts in the 100's of thousands.  

All I am asking for is a roadmap.  Is there going to be another release of PRISM for .net 4.5?  5.0? ( if 5.0 will exist ).  What about for the "Metro style" applications.  While all that is being shown at build are simple Metro apps, enterprises will want their apps in that world too.  Will P&P be there to help us?  Will it only be C#, or will there be Prism solutions for the C++ developer too? ( Is there a C++ DI Container that MS works with?  Is it even really feasible with the language? )  I could care less about the html5/js support, but others may.

What about the rest of the Enterprise Solutions?  Entlib, Unity, etc. 

Unknowns put our jobs, development budgets and plans in chaos.  I have to go to mgmt and sell technology and solutions based upon many factors.  Help us to do that.  Of course some unknowns are part of the business, but having a partner that is willing to be in it for the long haul enables us to work through the unknowns.  The secrecy of MS in this case put that partnership in serious doubts at all levels of mgmt within many organization.  I now have to figure out how to rebuild that confidence to both save my career and to help insure that MS has a seat at the table when application technology solutions are considered. 

If there is a //Build/ session that I should watch to get the start of these answers, can you point me to it?  If not, are we at the point where we can have an open conversation about it?  Do I need to go thorugh the MS reps at our company to get the conversations we need to have started? 

I am sure that there are many like me with the same and more questions,so I would prefer the conversations to be here, or in blog posts so that all can comment and understand.  But if I have to go internal I am happy to do that.

Thanks for putting up with our impatience

Paul

Sep 15, 2011 at 7:35 PM
I spoke to karl
shiflett about this very topic so I along with along of developers are truly astounded at html5 developers who for some strange reason want to bury silverlight, wpf, prism etc. He defended both silverlight and prism at that time! If you look at the october schedule for microsoft developer events you will find silverlight still a big part of the microsoft development process. Please let me Remind you that
silverlight along with prism is the premier development for object oriented programming so yes their are a number of programmers take this very personal THe fact is html 5 has just started. Please look at lack of html oop tools and compare them with silverlight and prism before saying silverlight is dead. RIght now, silverlight 6 will be started asp.net mvc will be doing improvements along with asp.net I am not telling you that someday html5 may take over however it's at least 5 years before we should be even talking about this. Karl shifflett told me that their will be future versions of prism for silverlight.RIght now microsoft wants to use asp.net, asp.net mvc, silverlight. prism, wpf, html 5 etc.



From: [email removed]
To: [email removed]
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 05:21:07 -0700
Subject: Re: Windows 8, WPF VNext, SL5, Prism? [CompositeWPF:261609]

From: pmont
Karl
It's september, //Build/ is in full swing, Windows 8 is out of the shadows, .net 4.5 has been announced and the enhancements shown (http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms171868(v=VS.110).aspx ). The latest c# is announced with the ASYNC keywords, and all in all there is a bunch of new stuff on the horizon to soak up and understand. While WPF and Silverlight's long term roadmap is in doubt, I believe it is time to start the conversation of what PRISM is in a windows 8 and beyond world, from a near term and a long term persepctive. And what role P&P will play in that future.
Enterprise developers need a roadmap that lasts more than 1 year or one near term release to be able to schedule and build applications that have a life cycle measured in years instead of months and LOC counts in the 100's of thousands.
All I am asking for is a roadmap. Is there going to be another release of PRISM for .net 4.5? 5.0? ( if 5.0 will exist ). What about for the "Metro style" applications. While all that is being shown at build are simple Metro apps, enterprises will want their apps in that world too. Will P&P be there to help us? Will it only be C#, or will there be Prism solutions for the C++ developer too? ( Is there a C++ DI Container that MS works with? Is it even really feasible with the language? ) I could care less about the html5/js support, but others may.
What about the rest of the Enterprise Solutions? Entlib, Unity, etc.
Unknowns put our jobs, development budgets and plans in chaos. I have to go to mgmt and sell technology and solutions based upon many factors. Help us to do that. Of course some unknowns are part of the business, but having a partner that is willing to be in it for the long haul enables us to work through the unknowns. The secrecy of MS in this case put that partnership in serious doubts at all levels of mgmt within many organization. I now have to figure out how to rebuild that confidence to both save my career and to help insure that MS has a seat at the table when application technology solutions are considered.
If there is a //Build/ session that I should watch to get the start of these answers, can you point me to it? If not, are we at the point where we can have an open conversation about it? Do I need to go thorugh the MS reps at our company to get the conversations we need to have started?
I am sure that there are many like me with the same and more questions,so I would prefer the conversations to be here, or in blog posts so that all can comment and understand. But if I have to go internal I am happy to do that.
Thanks for putting up with our impatience
Paul
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Sep 15, 2011 at 7:48 PM

I believe that both WPF and Silverlight will be able to be run on windows 8 and windows 9, etc for a while. But I do not believe that MS will expend any significant resources on either of them ever again, unless the user community screams very loud.

Take a look at the wpf team. Tell me how many people are on it? Any? The WinRT team is not WPF, nor is it the Silverlight team. WinRT is where MS will be putting all of their best and brightest. WPF and Silverlight will become the MFC and Winforms of their day.   Yeah,  their will be people on the teams, but never again will they have the attention like they had 3 years ago.  We still dont have a wpf toolkit  that complies with .net 4.0, let alone 4.5.  Are there any plans to do that?  The silverlight team that I see is part of the WP7 staff.  Is there a separate silverlight team targetting Windows 8 desktop?

But all of that is the way of the world in development.  I have no issue with them bringing WPF and Silverlight to a maintenance state, like MFC and WinForms.  Just so long as there is a path to VNext that is something other than HTML5/JS, and there is.  Now I just want to understand the role(s) that P&P plan on playing in that future.

Karl is a good man, and I am sure that he is working as hard as he can.  But there has been ZERO flow of information out of MS for months on this topic.  I think that now is the time to start that information flow up again.

Paul

Sep 16, 2011 at 4:18 AM
I do have to disagree that silverlight is dead
THe real question all of us should be asking ourselves what role does the internet developer play in the future?
1 I believe microsoft answered this question with the BUILd conference:
A The "internet" developer role will become easier with the use of html 5. SOftware will be lighter weight so the learning curve will be easier. The cloud and software as a service, system analyst jobs will be easier. It just makes it alot easier for smaller companies Latop developers.....
B The traditional "ENTERPRISE "desktop" developer technologies used in the intranet or over the internet
1 Asp.net
2 asp.net mvc
3 silverlight
4 wpf
THese feature enterprise applications like prism...Besides I really do not see microsoft getting rid of
silverlight, asp.net, mvc, wpf, sql etc when they have spent millons of dollars

From: [email removed]
To: [email removed]
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 11:48:17 -0700
Subject: Re: Windows 8, WPF VNext, SL5, Prism? [CompositeWPF:261609]

From: pmont
I believe that both WPF and Silverlight will be able to be run on windows 8 and windows 9, etc for a while. But I do not believe that MS will expend any significant resources on either of them ever again, unless the user community screams very loud.
Take a look at the wpf team. Tell me how many people are on it? Any? The WinRT team is not WPF, nor is it the Silverlight team. WinRT is where MS will be putting all of their best and brightest. WPF and Silverlight will become the MFC and Winforms of their day. Yeah, their will be people on the teams, but never again will they have the attention like they had 3 years ago. We still dont have a wpf toolkit that complies with .net 4.0, let alone 4.5. Are there any plans to do that? The silverlight team that I see is part of the WP7 staff. Is there a separate silverlight team targetting Windows 8 desktop?
But all of that is the way of the world in development. I have no issue with them bringing WPF and Silverlight to a maintenance state, like MFC and WinForms. Just so long as there is a path to VNext that is something other than HTML5/JS, and there is. Now I just want to understand the role(s) that P&P plan on playing in that future.
Karl is a good man, and I am sure that he is working as hard as he can. But there has been ZERO flow of information out of MS for months on this topic. I think that now is the time to start that information flow up again.
Paul
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Sep 16, 2011 at 12:12 PM

So my questions still stand.  What is PRISM in this brave new world.  Will we see a version of PRISM for WinRT based coding?  Will we see a version for .net 4.5?  .net 5.0? and so forth.  Will PRISM include all of the languages available in WinRT? Will there be a C++ equivalent of MEF or Unity or ? as a DI Contianer for WinRT coding?  Has PRISM gone into a maintenance mode too?  Will we see a WPFToolkit for .net 4.5?  What about a Silverlight toollkit for SL5?  Will there be a WinRT 1.0 Toolkit ? 

What is the role of P&P and codeplex going forward?  Is MS going to continue being as helpful and open as they have been with all of the Codeplex P&P open source projects, or has the secretiveness of the Devdiv and Windiv teams infected them too?   SO many question remain unanswered about this forum and its direction that its time to start the discusions.  We need a statement of direction from the P&P team leaders and MS about their view of the viability of THESE projects.  Not all of the answers will come at once.  Some of them will only be given to us by actions instead of words. ( I again reference the wpf toolkit ).  But lets start the conversation!

Billsim, you may not have noticed the dates on these msgs.  The original message was sent in June.  Well before //Build/  A lot of my original concerns about the future of C# and the forcing of HTML5 / JS on us were answered by build. 

I have not watched all of the //Build / Sessions, so if there are answers to these questions in some of those, please point me to them.

Paul

 

Sep 16, 2011 at 1:41 PM
I do believe you will see some answers in the near future. Prism will be alive and well.


From: [email removed]
To: [email removed]
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 04:12:26 -0700
Subject: Re: Windows 8, WPF VNext, SL5, Prism? [CompositeWPF:261609]

From: pmont
So my questions still stand. What is PRISM in this brave new world. Will we see a version of PRISM for WinRT based coding? Will we see a version for .net 4.5? .net 5.0? and so forth. Will PRISM include all of the languages available in WinRT? Will there be a C++ equivalent of MEF or Unity or ? as a DI Contianer for WinRT coding? Has PRISM gone into a maintenance mode too? Will we see a WPFToolkit for .net 4.5? What about a Silverlight toollkit for SL5? Will there be a WinRT 1.0 Toolkit ?
What is the role of P&P and codeplex going forward? Is MS going to continue being as helpful and open as they have been with all of the Codeplex P&P open source projects, or has the secretiveness of the Devdiv and Windiv teams infected them too? SO many question remain unanswered about this forum and its direction that its time to start the discusions. We need a statement of direction from the P&P team leaders and MS about their view of the viability of THESE projects. Not all of the answers will come at once. Some of them will only be given to us by actions instead of words. ( I again reference the wpf toolkit ). But lets start the conversation!
Billsim, you may not have noticed the dates on these msgs. The original message was sent in June. Well before //Build/ A lot of my original concerns about the future of C# and the forcing of HTML5 / JS on us were answered by build.
I have not watched all of the //Build / Sessions, so if there are answers to these questions in some of those, please point me to them.
Paul

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Sep 19, 2011 at 7:38 PM

Is there any ETA on some P&P response?  Thanks.

Sep 19, 2011 at 7:59 PM

We have a meeting Wednesday to discuss.  One of our key p & p leads is in Russia this week so we'll have to wait until the week 26 Sept to post a response.

Thank you for your understanding,

Karl

Sep 19, 2011 at 8:27 PM

Will you answer us this?

Were you and your team kept abreast of what was coming with Windows8 and WinRT?  Or did you really just learn about the technical aspects of it in the recent past?  ( within the last month or so ) 

What team does P&P report up to?  I am not familiar with it's structure.  Are you part of the OS development org?  Or the Tools group?  Or something completely different?

The week of the 26th is fine.  At this point whats another week or two. 

I look forward to some official statement on what the future will hold.

Paul

Sep 19, 2011 at 8:48 PM
I'm not on P&P, just looking for some timing on their position wrt WinRT.

Sent from my Windows Phone

From: pmont
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2011 3:27 PM
To: dinkhome@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: Windows 8, WPF VNext, SL5, Prism? [CompositeWPF:261609]

From: pmont

Will you answer us this?

Were you and your team kept abreast of what was coming with Windows8 and WinRT? Or did you really just learn about the technical aspects of it in the recent past? ( within the last month or so )

What team does P&P report up to? I am not familiar with it's structure. Are you part of the OS development org? Or the Tools group? Or something completely different?

The week of the 26th is fine. At this point whats another week or two.

I look forward to some official statement on what the future will hold.

Paul

Sep 19, 2011 at 8:51 PM

Sorry, the question was meant for Karl.

Paul

Sep 19, 2011 at 8:53 PM

Paul,

We can respond to this thread next week.

Thank you for your understanding,

Karl

Sep 19, 2011 at 9:11 PM
Edited Sep 29, 2011 at 10:06 PM

Paul , Thank you for this Thread

Karl,

After all the Turmoil from past week at Build 2011, and the New Metro XAML, but also with a place for WPF http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb613588%28v=VS.110%29.aspx

If Prism was needed before, now with WinRT Prism is a MUST

If MS launches "Metro with No Driver on Top" it will create a chaos, with all the components Suites trying to convince people they have the best solution and on the other hand Developers trying to do things their own way, as it happened when Silverlight 4 was launched.

I think Prism needs to become the “Driver on the Top” for us developers on the New XAML. to avoid MVVM chaos.

Thank you for creating Prism

it will be great to see a Road Map come out from that meeting !!!!

Sep 29, 2011 at 9:48 PM

Karl,

Any updates?

Thanks

Paul

Sep 29, 2011 at 10:29 PM

Paul,

Not yet.  We will post a response once we have it.

Thanks,

Karl

Oct 3, 2011 at 9:20 PM

Posting this so I can monitor for a response.

Oct 4, 2011 at 5:11 PM

 

I am a Silverlight / PRISM / MVVM / RIA enthusiast. I need to develop an application for windows 8 tablets. I am just waiting on a technology to start with when I get clear direction. I really want an updated version of PRISM that works with WinRT / C# / Windows 8. I looked at some HTML5/JQuery -- Looks so ugly to me. I am registering here just to get the updated news on PRISM.

 

Thanks
Vijay

Oct 4, 2011 at 7:19 PM

I am really impatient.

Great job you're doing there guys!

Thanks!

Kuba

Oct 10, 2011 at 10:27 AM

Its mid October and still no news here. Come on guys, how hard can it be to give the people out there that try to sell your stuff SOMETHING?!?

Oct 10, 2011 at 12:39 PM

Karl,

We are relying on you to post something.  Silence is not a good thing and will be taken as an indication of no future for these products.  I reference again the WPF toolkit.  The silence there is/was deafening, but just as acurate an answer as if MS had said it was dead.  It just took a year and a half of no responses or comments.  That leaves a bad taste in everybody's mouth. 

Its been 4 months since you promised something after //build and I believe we have been patient.  You said the week of Sept 26th, its now the week of Oct 10th.  I would much rather be told the answer is that there will be no prism for .net 4.5 so that I can make plans to work around it and to move away from it than to sit here begging and reading tea leaves.   Same questions for the Enterprise library, Unity, and all of the other P&P teams frameworks. 

A statement of support would go a long way.  A statement of direction and a road map would go even further.

Thanks again for the work you guys have done so far, we are just hoping that it continues.

Paul

 

Oct 10, 2011 at 12:47 PM

 I was about to post exactly the same comments as Paul has just added.

 

Oct 10, 2011 at 7:48 PM
Edited Oct 10, 2011 at 7:49 PM

Hi Karl,

We too are hopeful that there is a future for prism with .net 4.5 as we embark on a couple of enterprise-grade projects.

Any update would be greatly appreciated.  

Thanks so much,

Pat

Oct 11, 2011 at 2:52 PM

 For us, is it a statement about a version for Silverlight 5 that we are eagerly waiting.

Oct 12, 2011 at 8:34 PM

All,

I found this the other day on the Codeplex Enterprise Library site

http://entlib.codeplex.com/wikipage?title=RoadmapFY12&referringTitle=Home

It talks about the EntLib road map and when it will embrace .net 4.5.  It was last edited 0n Aug 22. according to the text on the bottom of the page.

Something as simple as this would be nice.

Paul

Oct 12, 2011 at 10:41 PM
I could not agree more!
silverlight along with asp.net mvc using dependency injection prism
will be using azure


From: [email removed]
To: [email removed]
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 12:34:19 -0700
Subject: Re: Windows 8, WPF VNext, SL5, Prism? [CompositeWPF:261609]

From: pmont
All,
I found this the other day on the Codeplex Enterprise Library site
http://entlib.codeplex.com/wikipage?title=RoadmapFY12&referringTitle=Home
It talks about the EntLib road map and when it will embrace .net 4.5. It was last edited 0n Aug 22. according to the text on the bottom of the page.
Something as simple as this would be nice.
Paul
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Oct 13, 2011 at 2:00 PM
pmont wrote:

All,

I found this the other day on the Codeplex Enterprise Library site

http://entlib.codeplex.com/wikipage?title=RoadmapFY12&referringTitle=Home

It talks about the EntLib road map and when it will embrace .net 4.5.  It was last edited 0n Aug 22. according to the text on the bottom of the page.

Something as simple as this would be nice.

Paul

I know that is a hopeful sign; however, I'm more concerned about what P&P will support (and can support) on WinRT.  Since this is a new runtime that is heavily sandboxed/restricted, it will take a significant effort to bring sophisticated .NET 4.0 code into it. There are so many extra restrictions, so many new namespaces (or old ones removed).  However, this is also the heir to Windows, so I want to get there ASAP to remain viable and relevant.

It could be that we're not seeing a response because it is a very difficult task to analyze and plan.  It could also be that they may have to launch a whole new framework becuase it is just so different.  I doubt that though, I would think that Silverlight code should be about the easiest version of .NET to move into WinRT.

Oct 13, 2011 at 3:02 PM

I would be happy if they would just commit to making sure that the current version of prism will be built and delivered to work with .net 4.5 and vs 2012. 

A new version of prism to take advantage of the new features of .net 4.5 is a development effort.   Recompile for .net 4.5 and vs 2012 should be a one week effort at the most.

A version of prism targetted at WinRT is a whole nother ball game.  For starters, is there a DI container that would work in that world?  Or would they need one for c++ and for C#, etc.  I see a WinRT Prism as a major re-write / port to the same level as the move from CAB to Prism was.   I dont see them committing to that until there is a better understanding of what WinRT features will be available in the Desktop mode, and what they want to allow in the sandbox of the Metro world. 

They may even be thinking of building the DI container and other Prism type features into the feature set of WinRT.  I could very much see the use for a mediator pattern implementation like the Event Aggregator as a feature of WinRT.  Same with some of the other concepts in Prism.  Who knows.

The silence is not good.

Paul

Oct 16, 2011 at 9:29 PM

I'm really interested too. We just started project with SL4 and PRISM. Plannin to go with SL5 as soon as it goes live. I wonder if PRISM will work with SL5 and of course I wonder if it's going to get any new features/functionality..

Oct 16, 2011 at 10:48 PM
One thing that you can count on, prism and silverlight 5 will be using windows azure(cloud) and
windows idnetity foundation(claims based)(token based) security that is built directly on top of asp.net custom membership...windows workflow foundation should be used as well
From: [email removed]
To: [email removed]
Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 13:29:49 -0700
Subject: Re: Windows 8, WPF VNext, SL5, Prism? [CompositeWPF:261609]


From: katit
I'm really interested too. We just started project with SL4 and PRISM. Plannin to go with SL5 as soon as it goes live. I wonder if PRISM will work with SL5 and of course I wonder if it's going to get any new features/functionality..
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Oct 16, 2011 at 11:09 PM

Does it mean that Clames based authentication will be somehow integrated/supported by PRISM?

Oct 17, 2011 at 12:01 AM
Yes, silverlight 5 will support it so I am positive this will be added to prism....
Have you seen enterprise library?? THey announced windows azure support

http://entlib.codeplex.com/ (unity,silverlight,enterprise library,prism, windows idnetity foundation
Windows azure uses claims based or a token based model
http://channel9.msdn.com/learn/courses/Azure/IdentityAzure
By the way, discount asp.net web host sent some questions about cloud based hosting....
so

From: [email removed]
To: [email removed]
Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 15:09:49 -0700
Subject: Re: Windows 8, WPF VNext, SL5, Prism? [CompositeWPF:261609]

From: katit
Does it mean that Clames based authentication will be somehow integrated/supported by PRISM?
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Oct 17, 2011 at 12:09 AM

Bill,

To be honest I'm not following Windows Azure thing. I'm hosting with Amazon, so I'm not sure what's special/different about it.

I did kind of looked at claims-based authentication but it was way too much for what I needed. I'm using tweaked ASP.NET membership thing.

I just wanted to make sure PRISM will not be dropped and will be migrated to SL5. Even better if it will be enchanced. Right now i'm using DevForce and their authentication.

Oct 17, 2011 at 12:42 AM
The basic difference between azure and other systems is really simple
Let's pretend you own zyz consulting. In a traditional site you own your own computers servers etc. You will need a system analyst and programmer, dba etc to run your operation.
In a "cloud" based system you let someone else control your (data-servers) microsoft or your cloud provider has multiple servers set up in different parts of the world. This means you
have given the rights to control your data to your cloud provider. System anaylsts are not
needed in a cloud environment. THis is good for small companies. I hope I explained this http://i1.silverlight.net/content/downloads/silverlight_5_beta_features.pdf?cdn_id=1
saml included silverlight 5 By the way I believe more web hosts will be using windows azure
so it will be very important in the future


From: [email removed]
To: [email removed]
Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 16:09:09 -0700
Subject: Re: Windows 8, WPF VNext, SL5, Prism? [CompositeWPF:261609]

From: katit
Bill,
To be honest I'm not following Windows Azure thing. I'm hosting with Amazon, so I'm not sure what's special/different about it.
I did kind of looked at claims-based authentication but it was way too much for what I needed. I'm using tweaked ASP.NET membership thing.
I just wanted to make sure PRISM will not be dropped and will be migrated to SL5. Even better if it will be enchanced. Right now i'm using DevForce and their authentication.
Read the full discussion online.
To add a post to this discussion, reply to this email (CompositeWPF@discussions.codeplex.com)
To start a new discussion for this project, email CompositeWPF@discussions.codeplex.com
You are receiving this email because you subscribed to this discussion on CodePlex. You can unsubscribe on CodePlex.com.
Please note: Images and attachments will be removed from emails. Any posts to this discussion will also be available online at CodePlex.com
Oct 17, 2011 at 1:38 AM
I also wanted to include mvc 4 roadmap http://aspnet.codeplex.com/wikipage?title=ASP.NET%20MVC%204%20RoadMap
yes it includes windows idnetity foundation which means azure, enterprise library prism mvc
The sad truth is that asp.net site teaches the repository pattern for both silverlight and mvc.
The silverlight training site needs to get better for mvvm....



From: [email removed]
To: [email removed]
Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 16:09:09 -0700
Subject: Re: Windows 8, WPF VNext, SL5, Prism? [CompositeWPF:261609]

From: katit
Bill,
To be honest I'm not following Windows Azure thing. I'm hosting with Amazon, so I'm not sure what's special/different about it.
I did kind of looked at claims-based authentication but it was way too much for what I needed. I'm using tweaked ASP.NET membership thing.
I just wanted to make sure PRISM will not be dropped and will be migrated to SL5. Even better if it will be enchanced. Right now i'm using DevForce and their authentication.
Read the full discussion online.
To add a post to this discussion, reply to this email (CompositeWPF@discussions.codeplex.com)
To start a new discussion for this project, email CompositeWPF@discussions.codeplex.com
You are receiving this email because you subscribed to this discussion on CodePlex. You can unsubscribe on CodePlex.com.
Please note: Images and attachments will be removed from emails. Any posts to this discussion will also be available online at CodePlex.com
Oct 17, 2011 at 6:18 PM
pmont wrote:

I would be happy if they would just commit to making sure that the current version of prism will be built and delivered to work with .net 4.5 and vs 2012. 

A new version of prism to take advantage of the new features of .net 4.5 is a development effort.   Recompile for .net 4.5 and vs 2012 should be a one week effort at the most.

The silence is not good.

Paul

Which advantages of .NET 4.5 are you talking about (If applied to PRISM)? I'm just curious

Oct 17, 2011 at 6:45 PM

From

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms171868(v=VS.110).aspx

On the WPF side, I would think that some of the Async enhancements could/should find their way into Prism, same with the MEF enhancements.  There are not a lot of changes to take advantage of that dont just come by default if you rebuild or run on .net 4.5.  Because Prism really doesnt address UX issues like the ribbon, or WinForm Air Space issues, there is not a lot to add there. 

A committment to make sure that the current verison builds and is usable by a developer in a .net 4.5 world, using whatever tools are available at the time ( vs 2010, vs 2012 ) should be a no brainer to me.  I want to make sure that if I decide to move to .net 4.5 for projects, that I am not held back because Prism does not work on it. 

Anything that would entail a code change or lock the code into .net 4.5 would be a development effort that would require a good bit of thought and design, IMO.  I can understand their reluctance to commit to that without fully understanding the WinRt challenges and the opportunities it presents to rethink once again what Prism is.  If it was me, I would want to do all of that at one time and schedule it to start after the Windows 8 Beta has been out for a bit.  I would also hope for a public request for ideas, like they had when they moved to Prism 2.0.

At the moment, I just want to know that this project is not an orphan.  With all the reshuffling that has occured in MS, that is not clear to me. The silence is deafening. 

Paul

 

Oct 17, 2011 at 6:55 PM

Thank you Paul for rapid answer. I think we all hope that Microsoft won't abandon thousands of developers all over the world (especially enterprises which had invested thousands or millions of $ into WPF and Silverlight technologies). But who knows :(

 

Oct 18, 2011 at 12:20 PM

Karl,

Please show us some kind of life sign. This is NOT good for Microsoft and the P&P team

Oct 18, 2011 at 4:46 PM
Edited Oct 18, 2011 at 4:47 PM

Appologies for the silence, this was not intentional nor do we want customers frustrated. My last message that we will respond when we have a firm commitment still stands.

The p & p team leadership had a meeting and we do have a roadmap. Our p & p developer lead will be posting a response on this thread soon.

Have a great day,

Karl

Developer
Oct 19, 2011 at 2:03 AM


We're working on publishing a roadmap and had hoped to have it out last week.  Until then, I want to let you know that we are planning a Prism update for .NET 4.5.
We also will be looking at what makes sense for Prism on the Win8 Metro profile.  Much like the phone, there are some pieces that may not make
as much sense under the Win8 profile as it does under the desktop profile.  We plan to start these projects off in the Feb. to Mar. timeframe of 2012.

Currently the Windows Phone 7 project is updating Prism for phone, early releases are already available on http://wp7guide.codeplex.com.

As usual, we will be looking for input as to what folks would like to see in Prism vNext and priorities.  We still plan on publishing
an overall p&p roadmap in the next couple days.

Sorry for the delay and stay tuned!

-b

Oct 19, 2011 at 2:09 AM

What abour RPISM for SL5? Are you planning to update/test as soon as SL5 goes live?

Oct 19, 2011 at 5:03 PM

brumfb and Karl

Thank you,  Thats all I needed.  Looking forward to seeing the plan.

Paul

Developer
Oct 20, 2011 at 5:18 PM

katit,

We have tested the current bits against SL5 and believe them to work unchanged, but obviously wouldn't take advantage of any new SL5 features.  We probably won't look to do anything SL5-specific until we do the update to .Net 4.5.

-b

Oct 21, 2011 at 1:16 AM

Any chance you can post those bits, compiled against SL5?

Oct 21, 2011 at 6:20 PM

What a huge deception for SL developers. Here we just begin the process to migrate 600 machines from xp to Win7. We won't have machines with WinRT anytime soon, like most corporations.

It is hard to believe but it really seems that MS won't put resource anymore in the Silverlight ecosystem, even with a project as important as PRISM. 

I just don't see why. 

 

 

Oct 21, 2011 at 8:43 PM

I meant disappointment, not deception. Anyway...

Developer
Oct 21, 2011 at 9:37 PM
CCPony1001 wrote:

Any chance you can post those bits, compiled against SL5?


Is there something you're looking to need bits compiled against SL5?   We tested the compiled SL4 bits on the SL5 runtime, so you should just be able to use them as is.

Developer
Oct 21, 2011 at 9:40 PM
Edited Oct 21, 2011 at 9:40 PM
fgoulet wrote:

What a huge deception for SL developers. Here we just begin the process to migrate 600 machines from xp to Win7. We won't have machines with WinRT anytime soon, like most corporations.

It is hard to believe but it really seems that MS won't put resource anymore in the Silverlight ecosystem, even with a project as important as PRISM. 

I just don't see why. 

 

 


For Prism, we are not really putting less or more effort than we have in the past around this.  We've typically done an update to Prism about once a year and try to time the work we do to incorporate changes to the core framework and Silverlight.  This largely comes down to team resources. 

-b

Oct 27, 2011 at 12:55 PM

as an additional question, since you are here.

Who owns the WPF Toolkit on codeplex?  With the shuffling that has occured, that is no longer obvious.

Thanks

Paul

Oct 27, 2011 at 3:36 PM
pmont wrote:
Who owns the WPF Toolkit on codeplex?  With the shuffling that has occured, that is no longer obvious.

Thanks

Paul

Isn't it Brian Lagunas ?

http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/wpf/thread/bc01a712-d29f-4109-90fb-0826bcde22ac

Regards

Oct 27, 2011 at 6:33 PM

Nope, he is the author of the Extended WPF toolkit.  Not the Official MS one at WPF.Codeplex.com

Thanks though

 

Oct 29, 2011 at 1:05 AM

Karl is leaving Microsoft

http://karlshifflett.wordpress.com/2011/10/21/to-every-thing-there-is-a-season/

We lost one of the best innovators that ever existed inside Microsoft..

Nov 10, 2011 at 12:24 PM
Edited Nov 10, 2011 at 12:50 PM

More info on the roadmap.  Good Job guys.  Just what I was looking for.  IMO, This should be linked to on the home page of the site.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/practices/bb232643

 

Nov 11, 2011 at 10:38 PM

 FREE Prism Training video from PluralSight

http://www.pluralsight-training.net/microsoft/Courses/TableOfContents?courseName=prism-introduction&utm_campaign=Prism&utm_medium=email&utm_source=VR&utm_content=Prism-free-course

•    Getting Started with Prism
•    Bootstrapper and Shell
•    Regions
•    Modules
•    Views
•    Communication
•    State-Based Navigation
•    View-Based Navigation

This FREE training is only available this weekend, Nov 12-14

Mar 15, 2012 at 8:42 PM
Edited Mar 15, 2012 at 8:57 PM

I've ported Unity to Metro (WinRt) using http://MetroIOC.CodePlex.com as the base; I basically implemented the IUnityContainer Interface on it, pulled over the unit test, and did TDD until all the test that would/could pass on WinRT did.  

When this was done I tried the same on Prism and wasn't so fortunate.  HOWEVER, I was able to pull in important pieces such as the EventAggregator and Commands folders, I pulled in those unit test and performed TDD until they passed.

With that done I created a "Prism" like framework that utilizes a bootstrapper, module catalog and behavior (with added features that I could have used).  I have successfully created a Metro/WinRT Prism "Like" application.  It is available at my http://SolrContrib.CodePlex.com open source project.  Most of the 189 passing unit test are from Prism and Unity with others from MetroIOC and test I developed to test my MVP-VM framework.

The Gwn.DataBinding.Demo sample Metro application it contains (see video clip at http://solrcontrib.codeplex.com/wikipage?title=MetroApp) is a 10 module application (7 of which are scenarios copied from the Metro Developer Preview sample, the other three are Toolbar, Statusbar, and template).  

Prism developers will feel right at home with this framework (for the most part), i.e. check out the Bootstrapper in figure 3 of the following link:
http://www.global-webnet.com/Blog/post/2012/03/13/SolrContrib-Module-Generator-.aspx

pmont wrote:

I would be happy if they would just commit to making sure that the current version of prism will be built and delivered to work with .net 4.5 and vs 2012. 

A new version of prism to take advantage of the new features of .net 4.5 is a development effort.   Recompile for .net 4.5 and vs 2012 should be a one week effort at the most.

A version of prism targetted at WinRT is a whole nother ball game.  For starters, is there a DI container that would work in that world?  Or would they need one for c++ and for C#, etc.  I see a WinRT Prism as a major re-write / port to the same level as the move from CAB to Prism was.   I dont see them committing to that until there is a better understanding of what WinRT features will be available in the Desktop mode, and what they want to allow in the sandbox of the Metro world. 

They may even be thinking of building the DI container and other Prism type features into the feature set of WinRT.  I could very much see the use for a mediator pattern implementation like the Event Aggregator as a feature of WinRT.  Same with some of the other concepts in Prism.  Who knows.

The silence is not good.

Paul

 

Mar 15, 2012 at 9:17 PM
Very neat

You did see their announcement on Prism futures right?

Paul

On Mar 15, 2012, at 3:42 PM, BillKrat wrote:

From: BillKrat

I've ported Unity to Metro (WinRt) using http://MetroIOC.CodePlex.com as the base; I basically implemented the IUnityContainer Interface on it, pulled over the unit test, and did TDD until all the test that would/could pass on WinRT did.

When this was done I tried the same on Prism and wasn't so fortunate. HOWEVER, I was able to pull in important pieces such as the EventAggregator and Commands folders, I pulled in those unit test and performed TDD until they passed.

With that done I created a "Prism" like framework that utilizes a bootstrapper, module catalog and behavior (with added features that I could have used). I have successfully created a Metro/WinRT Prism "Like" application. It is available at my http://SolrContrib.CodePlex.com open source project. Most of the 189 passing unit test are from Prism and Unity with others from MetroIOC and test I developed to test my MVP-VM framework.

The Gwn.DataBinding.Demo sample Metro application it contains (see video clip at http://solrcontrib.codeplex.com/wikipage?title=MetroApp&version=13) is a 10 module application (7 of which are scenarios copied from the Metro Developer Preview sample, the other three are Toolbar, Statusbar, and template).

Prism developers will feel right at home with this framework (for the most part), i.e. check out the Bootstrapper in figure 3 of the following link:
http://www.global-webnet.com/Blog/post/2012/03/13/SolrContrib-Module-Generator-.aspx

pmont wrote:

I would be happy if they would just commit to making sure that the current version of prism will be built and delivered to work with .net 4.5 and vs 2012.

A new version of prism to take advantage of the new features of .net 4.5 is a development effort. Recompile for .net 4.5 and vs 2012 should be a one week effort at the most.

A version of prism targetted at WinRT is a whole nother ball game. For starters, is there a DI container that would work in that world? Or would they need one for c++ and for C#, etc. I see a WinRT Prism as a major re-write / port to the same level as the move from CAB to Prism was. I dont see them committing to that until there is a better understanding of what WinRT features will be available in the Desktop mode, and what they want to allow in the sandbox of the Metro world.

They may even be thinking of building the DI container and other Prism type features into the feature set of WinRT. I could very much see the use for a mediator pattern implementation like the Event Aggregator as a feature of WinRT. Same with some of the other concepts in Prism. Who knows.

The silence is not good.

Paul



Mar 15, 2012 at 9:33 PM

No I didn't, do you have a link? My search through here left me worried as no one was talking...

pmont wrote:
Very neat
You did see their announcement on Prism futures right?
Paul

On Mar 15, 2012, at 3:42 PM, BillKrat wrote:

From: BillKrat

I've ported Unity to Metro (WinRt) using http://MetroIOC.CodePlex.com as the base; I basically implemented the IUnityContainer Interface on it, pulled over the unit test, and did TDD until all the test that would/could pass on WinRT did.

When this was done I tried the same on Prism and wasn't so fortunate. HOWEVER, I was able to pull in important pieces such as the EventAggregator and Commands folders, I pulled in those unit test and performed TDD until they passed.

With that done I created a "Prism" like framework that utilizes a bootstrapper, module catalog and behavior (with added features that I could have used). I have successfully created a Metro/WinRT Prism "Like" application. It is available at my http://SolrContrib.CodePlex.com open source project. Most of the 189 passing unit test are from Prism and Unity with others from MetroIOC and test I developed to test my MVP-VM framework.

The Gwn.DataBinding.Demo sample Metro application it contains (see video clip at http://solrcontrib.codeplex.com/wikipage?title=MetroApp&version=13) is a 10 module application (7 of which are scenarios copied from the Metro Developer Preview sample, the other three are Toolbar, Statusbar, and template).

Prism developers will feel right at home with this framework (for the most part), i.e. check out the Bootstrapper in figure 3 of the following link:
http://www.global-webnet.com/Blog/post/2012/03/13/SolrContrib-Module-Generator-.aspx

pmont wrote:

I would be happy if they would just commit to making sure that the current version of prism will be built and delivered to work with .net 4.5 and vs 2012.

A new version of prism to take advantage of the new features of .net 4.5 is a development effort. Recompile for .net 4.5 and vs 2012 should be a one week effort at the most.

A version of prism targetted at WinRT is a whole nother ball game. For starters, is there a DI container that would work in that world? Or would they need one for c++ and for C#, etc. I see a WinRT Prism as a major re-write / port to the same level as the move from CAB to Prism was. I dont see them committing to that until there is a better understanding of what WinRT features will be available in the Desktop mode, and what they want to allow in the sandbox of the Metro world.

They may even be thinking of building the DI container and other Prism type features into the feature set of WinRT. I could very much see the use for a mediator pattern implementation like the Event Aggregator as a feature of WinRT. Same with some of the other concepts in Prism. Who knows.

The silence is not good.

Paul

 

Mar 15, 2012 at 9:38 PM
Here ya go


On Mar 15, 2012, at 4:33 PM, BillKrat wrote:

From: BillKrat

No I didn't, do you have a link? My search through here left me worried as no one was talking...

pmont wrote:
Very neat
You did see their announcement on Prism futures right?
Paul

On Mar 15, 2012, at 3:42 PM, BillKrat wrote:

From: BillKrat

I've ported Unity to Metro (WinRt) using http://MetroIOC.CodePlex.com as the base; I basically implemented the IUnityContainer Interface on it, pulled over the unit test, and did TDD until all the test that would/could pass on WinRT did.

When this was done I tried the same on Prism and wasn't so fortunate. HOWEVER, I was able to pull in important pieces such as the EventAggregator and Commands folders, I pulled in those unit test and performed TDD until they passed.

With that done I created a "Prism" like framework that utilizes a bootstrapper, module catalog and behavior (with added features that I could have used). I have successfully created a Metro/WinRT Prism "Like" application. It is available at myhttp://SolrContrib.CodePlex.com open source project. Most of the 189 passing unit test are from Prism and Unity with others from MetroIOC and test I developed to test my MVP-VM framework.

The Gwn.DataBinding.Demo sample Metro application it contains (see video clip at http://solrcontrib.codeplex.com/wikipage?title=MetroApp&version=13) is a 10 module application (7 of which are scenarios copied from the Metro Developer Preview sample, the other three are Toolbar, Statusbar, and template).

Prism developers will feel right at home with this framework (for the most part), i.e. check out the Bootstrapper in figure 3 of the following link:
http://www.global-webnet.com/Blog/post/2012/03/13/SolrContrib-Module-Generator-.aspx

pmont wrote:

I would be happy if they would just commit to making sure that the current version of prism will be built and delivered to work with .net 4.5 and vs 2012.

A new version of prism to take advantage of the new features of .net 4.5 is a development effort. Recompile for .net 4.5 and vs 2012 should be a one week effort at the most.

A version of prism targetted at WinRT is a whole nother ball game. For starters, is there a DI container that would work in that world? Or would they need one for c++ and for C#, etc. I see a WinRT Prism as a major re-write / port to the same level as the move from CAB to Prism was. I dont see them committing to that until there is a better understanding of what WinRT features will be available in the Desktop mode, and what they want to allow in the sandbox of the Metro world.

They may even be thinking of building the DI container and other Prism type features into the feature set of WinRT. I could very much see the use for a mediator pattern implementation like the Event Aggregator as a feature of WinRT. Same with some of the other concepts in Prism. Who knows.

The silence is not good.

Paul



Mar 16, 2012 at 1:14 AM

Excellent!! Thank you – this will save me considerable time as I won’t invest any more time in the Prism/Unity aspects of development; I have enough to carry me until release.

Bill

From: pmont [email removed]
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 4:38 PM
To: bill@global-webnet.com
Subject: Re: Windows 8, WPF VNext, SL5, Prism? [CompositeWPF:261609]

From: pmont

Here ya go

On Mar 15, 2012, at 4:33 PM, BillKrat wrote:



From: BillKrat

No I didn't, do you have a link? My search through here left me worried as no one was talking...

pmont wrote:
Very neat

You did see their announcement on Prism futures right?

Paul

On Mar 15, 2012, at 3:42 PM, BillKrat wrote:

From: BillKrat

I've ported Unity to Metro (WinRt) using http://MetroIOC.CodePlex.com as the base; I basically implemented the IUnityContainer Interface on it, pulled over the unit test, and did TDD until all the test that would/could pass on WinRT did.

When this was done I tried the same on Prism and wasn't so fortunate. HOWEVER, I was able to pull in important pieces such as the EventAggregator and Commands folders, I pulled in those unit test and performed TDD until they passed.

With that done I created a "Prism" like framework that utilizes a bootstrapper, module catalog and behavior (with added features that I could have used). I have successfully created a Metro/WinRT Prism "Like" application. It is available at myhttp://SolrContrib.CodePlex.com open source project. Most of the 189 passing unit test are from Prism and Unity with others from MetroIOC and test I developed to test my MVP-VM framework.

The Gwn.DataBinding.Demo sample Metro application it contains (see video clip at http://solrcontrib.codeplex.com/wikipage?title=MetroApp&version=13) is a 10 module application (7 of which are scenarios copied from the Metro Developer Preview sample, the other three are Toolbar, Statusbar, and template).

Prism developers will feel right at home with this framework (for the most part), i.e. check out the Bootstrapper in figure 3 of the following link:
http://www.global-webnet.com/Blog/post/2012/03/13/SolrContrib-Module-Generator-.aspx

pmont wrote:

I would be happy if they would just commit to making sure that the current version of prism will be built and delivered to work with .net 4.5 and vs 2012.

A new version of prism to take advantage of the new features of .net 4.5 is a development effort. Recompile for .net 4.5 and vs 2012 should be a one week effort at the most.

A version of prism targetted at WinRT is a whole nother ball game. For starters, is there a DI container that would work in that world? Or would they need one for c++ and for C#, etc. I see a WinRT Prism as a major re-write / port to the same level as the move from CAB to Prism was. I dont see them committing to that until there is a better understanding of what WinRT features will be available in the Desktop mode, and what they want to allow in the sandbox of the Metro world.

They may even be thinking of building the DI container and other Prism type features into the feature set of WinRT. I could very much see the use for a mediator pattern implementation like the Event Aggregator as a feature of WinRT. Same with some of the other concepts in Prism. Who knows.

The silence is not good.

Paul

Aug 6, 2012 at 2:43 PM

With Windows 8 having gone RTM, is there a chance we can get an update on any timelines or schedules for Prism for WinRT, or any new/change in plans for guidance on Windows 8?   Any hope for a Unity for WinRt anytime soon?  etc.

Thanks

Paul

Aug 7, 2012 at 1:29 AM

i second that!!

we are waiting on the next Prism (Win8) to start our next big project.

There are so many question that will be answered and mysteries revealed just by considering which technologies Prism for Win 8 will implement

Prism is the best thing that ever happened to software development !!

Aug 7, 2012 at 11:02 AM

I third that!!!

All frameworks that I have advised clients to use (as a contract developer) since CAB (SCSF, WCSF, Prism, etc.) have been based on P&P frameworks - it has also served as an invaluable tool for learning/applying best practices and patterns when working with a new environment.    

Thanks

Bill

Aug 7, 2012 at 11:31 AM

Do we need a forth?

I've upgraded the Event Aggregator & Commanding to work under WinRT without too many issues and am using that in a few projects.

Would be nice to see the full prism framework supported by MS though. I know the patterns & practices website had Prism on Win8 on their roadmap but that seems to have slipped. When I queried MS directly we were told even though the graphic shows Prism on Win8 circa April 2012 it's subject to win 8 ship dates.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/practices/bb232643

Looking at their roadmap they've already missed Entlib 6.0 as well.

*S

 

Aug 9, 2012 at 1:28 PM

just found this.  Obviously I have been out of touch.

http://unity.codeplex.com/releases/view/75719

pmont

Aug 9, 2012 at 4:20 PM
pmont wrote:

just found this.  Obviously I have been out of touch.

http://unity.codeplex.com/releases/view/75719

pmont


Yes, I'm using the servicelocation side of things with the rebuilt prism for winrt.

Aug 25, 2012 at 7:59 PM

I'll vote for Prism for .NET 4.5 and VS2012 also!  Info please...

 

 

Aug 26, 2012 at 11:51 AM
gplumfield wrote:

I'll vote for Prism for .NET 4.5 and VS2012 also!  Info please...

 

 

I also expect the prism 4.5 come soon !

Oct 30, 2012 at 8:41 AM

On the actual Roadmap http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/practices/default Prism for WinRT is dropped.
Has anyone further information? 

Nov 4, 2012 at 10:01 PM
uli_laegeler wrote:

On the actual Roadmap http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/practices/default Prism for WinRT is dropped.
Has anyone further information? 

Interesting question.
I would also like if anybody from the P&P team would comment the current situation.

Maybe we have to wait until WinRT 2, because WinRT isn't yet on the same level like for example Silverlight 3. Most of the binding and behaviour stuff is missing.
Again you have to use more code behind. No real MVVM anymore.

The fact that PRISM isn't updated shows that LOB development isn't still  in the focus of MSFT.

It's not easy for you P&P guys, is it? All the battles between the teams and now as a result this legacy coding stuff of WinRT ;-)

Regards
Dirk 

 

Nov 5, 2012 at 4:09 PM
Edited Nov 5, 2012 at 4:09 PM

Time to give up with Microsoft and move to the other technology stacks. The fact we are not getting any clear answers says it all. I think they will find out the hard way – that it takes heaven and earth to get the developers back once they leave.

Coordinator
Nov 5, 2012 at 8:38 PM
Edited Nov 5, 2012 at 8:39 PM

 We are currently testing Prism on .NET 4.5 and will have a release within the next 2 - 4 weeks. If you want to get started now, you can download the Prism v4 code from here or the download center. You will need to update the project files to target .NET 4.5 and also copy the Portable Class Library version of the Common Service Locator (http://commonservicelocator.codeplex.com/releases/view/17694) and Unity 3.0 dlls (http://unity.codeplex.com/releases/view/92699) into the appropriate lib folder.

I am working on a blog post that outlines the scope of Windows 8 LOB project. With this project we plan to deliver guidance on how to create a maintainable and testable line of business application for the Windows Store. Windows Store apps are significantly different than WPF and Silverlight. Therefore, we are evaluating which Prism capabilities make sense for Windows Store apps. For example we currently believe that modular deployment does not but MVVM, the pub/sub pattern (Event Aggregator) or delegate commands do. As an fyi, we changed the name of the project from Prism WinRT to Windows 8 LOB because it is more descriptive.

Does this make sense?

I will post a link to this discussion thread when the blog post is complete.

Regards,

Blaine

Nov 7, 2012 at 6:46 PM
Edited Nov 7, 2012 at 7:00 PM

Blaine

If you are going to target win 8 lob with this release, it would be nice to get some guidance on not just building an app, but best practices on lifecycle, contracts and how to work with any standard or built in contracts, working with hardware, IPC and any best practices on how to communicate outside of the application.   An enterprise app will need more than a cloud interface.  It will also need to communicate with other apps on the same box,  SOA interfaces, etc.   It will also need at some point to be able to communicate to .net 4.5 apps running on the desktop.  No matter how much MS wants it to not happen, it will be one of the major asks from companies of their developers. 

Part of the original Winform CAB project was a kitchen sink approach to putting everything into the project.  Prism went to the other end of the spectrum and made the project very lightweight.  It would be nice if there was a happy middle.  We need more guidance on things that are new to WinRT, but we don't need something as large as CAB was.

I believe that a pluggable architecture is still needed.  Modular deployment and architecture is a must in a multi-person, distributed development effort.  And I would believe that an app that will have multiple abilities based on free vs pay vs authorizations is still a natural for it.  I don't understand why you say it wouldn't be.

Thanks for the update, and I look forward to the blog post.

Paul

 

Coordinator
Nov 7, 2012 at 7:52 PM

Paul can you send me an email as I would like to setup some time talk on the phone so I better understand your set of requirements.

Thanks.

Blaine

Nov 7, 2012 at 8:27 PM
Edited Nov 7, 2012 at 8:44 PM

Blaine

Thanks.  See my email response. 

But to keep the discussion going here, up thread brumfb said that there would be a public request for input about the winrt side of things.  I am sure that while I may have some valid ideas, the group will have many more that will not only make sense, but will make your job harder. <grin> 

There are some good minds here, like billkrat and others, all of whose input should be considered. 

Having not read your impending blog post yet, It would at least be nice to get an understanding of what you consider your customer to be and what you feel their needs are.  Too often one definition of what an enterprise customer is is not the definition that others are working with.  A clear definition of that, and what you and P&P feel are the problems they have to address would go a long way to helping us to help you.  I really don't believe that MS has a clear idea who their customer is at the moment.

The apps that are built using P&P products/artifacts are everything from 1000 line programs to many hundreds of thousands of lines programs regardless of the market they address.  They are run once in a while types of things, to things that must be running 100% of the time.  Apps that have no need for security to ones that must go far beyond the norm.  Apps that are self contained, to ones that are distributed logic across many different tiers and technologies.  Apps that don't interact with the hardware to ones that need special drivers for special hardware they use. 

What market/customer are you trying to address?  Define that and then the rest of the problem becomes easier.

Again, thanks for the response.  It is nice to finally get some response from MS.  It might also be educational to reread the thread from the start.  Take note of the dates when/if you do.  Some of it makes more sense in that context.

Paul

Coordinator
Nov 8, 2012 at 4:02 PM

I like the idea of engaging with others. If anyone wants to participate in a conference call next week send me email to blainew at Microsoft. In the email header put the title Windows 8 & Prism.

 

blaine

Nov 8, 2012 at 8:55 PM

Blaine

Thank you for answering.
[I’ve just seen Steve Ballmer live on a small developer event in Berlin, Germany. Is he always so loud? ;-)]

Do you really focus only on applications for the Windows Store?

I mean I understand that Windows 8 is focused on customer apps for the Windows store – in the moment. But if we talk about LOB applications I think the focus should also be on corporate apps for side loading in a company.

As a Silverlight developer of a really big (energy) company (160.000 employees) I’m not allowed to use MVVM frameworks like MVVM light, developed by a single person.

We try to build maintainable, evolvable and testable application

In fact of this we are developing modular intranet applications (Silverlight/ PRISM, Unity, WCF, EF, SQL Server). We are still developing with Windows XP and switch next year to Win 7 (!). Big companies are always 5 years back in the past. So Silverlight will be still alive for us until the end of live cycle of Win 7.

But never the less being part of a think tank within the company, we think about developing apps for Windows 8, - but not for the app store. We are thinking about multi target applications: Desktop, tablet, phone. One code, multiple targets, switching only the view. Yeah, that’s MVVM. This was possible for WPF/Silverlight and WP7. But what about WinRT?

If you think about Windows 8 LOB, you will also have to think about maintainable, evolvable and testable applications. Silverlight and WPF never supported totally the MVVM pattern, so you guys developed PRISM (and all the other MVPs created little but nice forks). At the beginning this was not easy but with Silverlight 3 behaviors were introduced so that you could also implement the EventToCommand pattern to avoid code behind and to develop fine decoupled applications.

But WinRT doesn’t support behaviors and also the binding functionality has been reduced. Bing maps for example have no really bindings anymore.

Do you think it is possible to develop high quality WinRT LOB apps on the same level like today with Silverlight or WPF?

I’ll look forward what you guys will create and I’m happy that you are still alive.
Regards
Dirk
PS: If you need persons involved deeply in MVVM, PRISM and Unity for brainstomring from outside MSFT don't hesitate to contact me (and certainly also the other member of this forum)

Nov 13, 2012 at 5:56 AM

Hi
Thankyou for those that have kept this discussion going, and for the responses from the P&P team.

I'd like to provide some input here too. For the last 2-3 years my team has been developing a large complex corporate GIS LOB app (SL5, Prism, MVVM, MEF, WCF, EF, SQL Server). I am very happy with this architecture. This app has just gone live (on Windows XP) and we are now embarking on the next stages of the project to add increased functionality over the next 2-3 years.

I was concerned to read in this thread that there are no plans for modular apps in Windows 8 LOB apps. Our system needs to be modular due to it's size and complexity.

In the next few years we may upgrade our desktops to Windows 8, but I can't see a way forward at the moment for us to migrate our new application to Windows 8 and we would need to keep it running in the Desktop mode as a Silverlight application.

It's good that the underlying skillsets do have a place in Windows 8. But as an architect, I can't see how we can develop complex corporate LOB apps. Perhaps I'm missing something?

Regards,
Peter

Nov 13, 2012 at 11:02 AM

Think it a real mess that Prism can’t easily be ported to Windows 8 apps. Breaking this transition between the desktop and the metro world is one of the biggest mistakes.. make it easier for developer not harder..

It really doesn’t take a genius to figure out they should just create a version of Silverlight that runs as a metro app and also on the desktop. I bet it could be done in less than a few months. It would make everyone happy. It may not be the best way but it gives people choice it allows experimentation - People will in the long run just write native app but at least it gives them a choice now.

 

Nov 13, 2012 at 11:35 AM

Hi all,

I've got my eye on Prism/WPF because the company I'm at is currently evaluating frameworks to replace or augment our C++/MFC-based one.

One criteria for evaluating frameworks is longevity, which stems from our existing MFC codebase. If MFC was under development which would see improvements to the core library and the designer tools I think we'd be less likely to look for MFC replacements.

My concern is that the p&p roadmap doesn't seem to offer any guidance on Prism/WPF on the desktop; the roadmap seems to be focusing on WinRT (but that's not to say that a framework that runs on the desktop is mutually exclusive from a framework that runs on Windows Store.)

I'm wondering if anybody can point me towards some guidance that suggests Prism/WPF will continue to see development for desktop applications? The MFC code in the application I work on is up to 20 years old and the next windowing framework we pick might have to go another 20 years before we change it again.

If there is none or no further consideration for Prism on the desktop besides v4.5 please consider this post a +1 vote for p&p to continue to work on desktop technologies.

Nov 13, 2012 at 12:04 PM

I found two different Prism ports targeting Windows Store apps on Codeplex:

Unfortunately, they both don't contain a port of the MefExtensions, which I would like to use in my solution. I'm using them only temporarily, hoping that Prism gets officially ported to Windows Store apps soon. I'm happy to hear about any status updates regarding this.

Nov 13, 2012 at 1:17 PM

<offtopic>
My post seems to be little bit off topic, but the person who is responsible for the Silverlight bashing is leaving Microsoft: Steven Sinofsky, President of the Windows Division 

Maybe you have read the blog of Scott Barns, a former MSFT product manager, who describes the battle between the Windows division WinDiv and the developer division DevDiv, which the DevDiv has lost.

The P&P Team is part of DevDiv, isn’t it?

Maybe the WinDivs weight will now shift back to WinDev. In the moment there is too much focus on Windows 8 and the app market and too less focus on the evolution of software develment.
</offtopic>

Nov 13, 2012 at 11:38 PM
pmont wrote:

If you are going to target win 8 lob with this release, it would be nice to get some guidance on not just building an app, but best practices on lifecycle, contracts and how to work with any standard or built in contracts, working with hardware, IPC and any best practices on how to communicate outside of the application.   An enterprise app will need more than a cloud interface.  It will also need to communicate with other apps on the same box,  SOA interfaces, etc.   It will also need at some point to be able to communicate to .net 4.5 apps running on the desktop.  No matter how much MS wants it to not happen, it will be one of the major asks from companies of their developers.  

Hi Paul,

Great input, but some of which it is important to realize are platform limitations, by design, of WinRT that p&p can't solve. For example IPC, direct communications between Windows Store (WinRT) apps and desktop apps is intentionally not included in WinRT capabilities to keep the apps sandboxed. Some things like showing how to use contracts and how to best leverage the platform for LOB apps I think is definitely within bounds, but p&p is not going to show you how to get around intentional design limitations of the platform.

Nov 13, 2012 at 11:46 PM
judgy wrote:

But WinRT doesn’t support behaviors and also the binding functionality has been reduced. Bing maps for example have no really bindings anymore.

Do you think it is possible to develop high quality WinRT LOB apps on the same level like today with Silverlight or WPF?

Dirk

Dirk,

You can definitely still write custom Attached Property-based behaviors in WinRT (change callback handling extensions of an element), and can even write behaviors that follow the structure of a Blend behavior by using something like this: http://winrtbehaviors.codeplex.com/

I think it is only a matter of time before the Blend team catches up and has a Blend SDK for WinRT, at least I hope so.

Definitely the LOB guidance p&p is working on is about how to develop high quality WinRT LOB apps. It is important to realize though that if you intend to make it a WinRT app, you are at a minimum constrained by the intentional limitations of the platform (the sandbox that WinRT apps run in) and you should be constrained some by the "Modern UI Style" (aka Metro-style) that guides you to building a much smaller scale and simpler app than many LOB desktop apps have been in the past. If you need to live outside those constraints, then building a desktop app is still the right thing to do, especially if you have the requirement to run on older platforms than Windows 8. Just because we have a new way of building client applications doesn't mean that all client applications should be built in this environment.

My 2c.

Brian

Nov 13, 2012 at 11:48 PM
taspeotis wrote:

Hi all,

I've got my eye on Prism/WPF because the company I'm at is currently evaluating frameworks to replace or augment our C++/MFC-based one.

One criteria for evaluating frameworks is longevity, which stems from our existing MFC codebase. If MFC was under development which would see improvements to the core library and the designer tools I think we'd be less likely to look for MFC replacements.

My concern is that the p&p roadmap doesn't seem to offer any guidance on Prism/WPF on the desktop; the roadmap seems to be focusing on WinRT (but that's not to say that a framework that runs on the desktop is mutually exclusive from a framework that runs on Windows Store.)

I'm wondering if anybody can point me towards some guidance that suggests Prism/WPF will continue to see development for desktop applications? The MFC code in the application I work on is up to 20 years old and the next windowing framework we pick might have to go another 20 years before we change it again.

If there is none or no further consideration for Prism on the desktop besides v4.5 please consider this post a +1 vote for p&p to continue to work on desktop technologies.


Are there things about building desktop applications that you feel Prism does not address adequately today? Prism does not try to be all things to all people, but it remains the p&p guidance for building loosely coupled, testable, maintainable, small to large scale desktop applications for Windows (XP -> 8 and beyond).

Brian

Nov 13, 2012 at 11:56 PM
Hi Brian,

Thanks for your reply.

I feel that Prism is a capable framework right now.

My post wasn't so much about things I want to see in Prism so much as it was about making sure that there is an intent to continue to develop Prism for the desktop.

Going with the "is WPF dead" theme at the start of this thread, I'd like to use Prism/WPF in a commercial application I maintain but not if WPF is on the wag out. I'm using Prism as an informal indicator that Microsoft is still interested in WPF.

On 14/11/2012, at 9:48 AM, "briannoyes" <notifications@codeplex.com> wrote:

From: briannoyes

taspeotis wrote:

Hi all,

I've got my eye on Prism/WPF because the company I'm at is currently evaluating frameworks to replace or augment our C++/MFC-based one.

One criteria for evaluating frameworks is longevity, which stems from our existing MFC codebase. If MFC was under development which would see improvements to the core library and the designer tools I think we'd be less likely to look for MFC replacements.

My concern is that the p&p roadmap doesn't seem to offer any guidance on Prism/WPF on the desktop; the roadmap seems to be focusing on WinRT (but that's not to say that a framework that runs on the desktop is mutually exclusive from a framework that runs on Windows Store.)

I'm wondering if anybody can point me towards some guidance that suggests Prism/WPF will continue to see development for desktop applications? The MFC code in the application I work on is up to 20 years old and the next windowing framework we pick might have to go another 20 years before we change it again.

If there is none or no further consideration for Prism on the desktop besides v4.5 please consider this post a +1 vote for p&p to continue to work on desktop technologies.


Are there things about building desktop applications that you feel Prism does not address adequately today? Prism does not try to be all things to all people, but it remains the p&p guidance for building loosely coupled, testable, maintainable, small to large scale desktop applications for Windows (XP -> 8 and beyond).

Brian

Nov 14, 2012 at 12:21 AM
taspeotis wrote:
Going with the "is WPF dead" theme at the start of this thread, I'd like to use Prism/WPF in a commercial application I maintain but not if WPF is on the wag out. I'm using Prism as an informal indicator that Microsoft is still interested in WPF.

I guess I would consider the fact that they recently released an updated version of Prism for .NET 4.5 and that there are a few new features and performance improvements in WPF 4.5 indication that it will move forward. I would love to see some similar love for Silverlight so that people would have confidence that it is not going away either. But it may be a little closer to maintenance mode than WPF, we shall see.

Nov 14, 2012 at 5:00 PM

Brian,  Thank you for responding on this thread.  It is nice to see your activity here.  I followed your blog for years.

If you were going to build an app that YOU had to live with for 10+ years, what would you use to build it?  That's a decision that mgmt. is asking developers every day.  They have to make a choice what technology to trust over the lifetime of a system.  How would you answer it given MS's current Apple like direction of going Dark on any long term ( more than 5 years, maybe ) plans?  taspeotis wants a 20 year visibility. 

We all know that WinRt is not .net/WPF or Silverlight.  We understand that it was built to address a need for MS to build and market to a consumer "app" store environment/sandbox to compete with IOS.  But you are asking about LOB for WinRT.  In my mind an LOB app quite often lives in a secure environment/machine with the need to break out of the WinRT sandbox.  Similar to the differences between WPF and Silverlight.  Think Financial Trader Workstations, Call Center applications, Assisted Selling tablets in retail, even the tablets that MS uses at the Microsoft store.  How do we take advantage of the goodness that WinRT brings from a performance perspective into non-consumer apps?  That's what I think when I hear LOB.  Not the latest and greatest Angry Birds or a weather app.

What is your definition of a LOB app? 

I also want my LOB apps used by enterprise associates to have the smoothness of animations and the gestures that the user will be use to from the consumer apps.  If I have to write it in .net/WPF I am immediately at a disadvantage.  It wont be as smooth/fluid.  And it wont react to the same gestures without significant work on my part to build them in. 

I can separate out the various logic that has to live on the client to "services" or long running desktop apps, it they need access outside of the sandbox, but I need a good way to communicate within the box to the UI if I build it on WinRT.  How do I do that?  I don't want to make round trips to a server if I don't have to for state or context.

I have to believe that MS sees this and will bring the WinRT stack to all of the OS in a future version.  I would bet that there will be the WPF sandbox equivalent of the App store sandbox soon.

In the mean time,  if what you are giving us from P&P for WinRT is guidance and a way to build Consumer apps better, that is great!  I would love to see the Aggregator, Unity, etc. available for consumer apps.  But my LOB customers are going to be asking me how to break out of the sandbox for their needs.  How to make .net/WPF apps play nice with the WinRT side.  Or how to make WPF apps look and feel like WinRT apps.  Help me with those too.

Maybe a set of libraries that allowed a WPF app to behave more like a WinRT app would be a nice addition to the .net 4.5 prism deliverables.

It would also be nice to hear MS re-dedicate themselves to WPF or WinRTWPF or something.  But that's not your problem.  <grin>

Thanks again for being here and listening.

Pmont

Nov 15, 2012 at 12:27 AM

Hi Pmont, 

A lot of comment on there!

As far as building an app that you expect to live for 5, 10, 20 years... depends on what you mean by "live". Seems like many people discussing this in the context of modern UI technologies are treating it as if a technology is "dead" as soon as the last planned version of it ships. Silverlight is not dead, there are just no planned future versions that anyone knows about at this point. It is still just as viable to build a new Silverlight app today as it was before Silverlight 5 shipped. Just as it is still viable to build a new Windows Forms app today as long as you understand you are not going to get any new features. I think it is reasonable to expect a 5-10 year lifetime out of any of the current UI technology choices. I think it may be naive to expect much beyond that without some degree of rewrite - if not for technology sake, for your user's sake. Can anyone really say that their current business model and use cases will be mostly the same more than a decade from now? I doubt it.

But it is the world we are living in now - we want rapid innovation from the software platforms, but we somehow want it to be stable and unchanging for the long term. That is just an unsolvable conundrum in my book.

I agree with your perspective on what a LOB app is - to me it is any app built by a business to support what they do as a business, regardless of whether it is consumer facing or for internal employees. But the latter case aligns a little better with the traditional concept of LOB. 

Your point on the growing expectations of users is I think the most important one of why we think LOB guidance for WinRT is needed now. People will want the same fast and fluid experience for their business apps, especially if given touch devices or screens, and they are only going to get that from a Windows Store app. But the simple fact is WinRT at this point in time has not matured to address the full range of business needs that go outside of the sandbox. Microsoft has said very clearly that Windows 8 is a consumer focused release. I think they will get to those things in future releases/OS's, but there is nothing p&p can do to show how to make the platform do something it was specifically designed not to do.

So the Kona project that is focused on LOB guidance for Windows Store apps is really focused on trying to show how you can eek out as good of a business app as possible based on what the platform currently supports, particularly how to structure it for longer term maintainability and testability, and not so much on how to go outside the bounds of what WinRT says you can do.

p&p's job (my words, not theirs) is to provide guidance on how to best use the current platforms, not how to hack them into doing things they are not designed to do. If you don't like the design, you need to try to get that feedback heard by the product teams that produce that platform (Windows Division in this case), for which the Connect site is unfortunately one of the only paths to doing so at this point. 

I too sincerely hope Windows Division will open up a bit and operate more like DevDiv and the Windows Azure and ASP.NET teams in particular currently do. But neither I nor p&p have much if any sway in making that happen.

Nov 15, 2012 at 2:28 PM

>> So the Kona project that is focused on LOB guidance 

?

Can you point me to a link?

Thanks for the reply to a long dissertation.  I tend to pontificate a bit. <grin>

Pmont

Nov 15, 2012 at 11:16 PM

Thank you very much, Brian.

These are the honest words I've heard from an employee of Microsoft in the last couple of months.
Yes, we all hope that the WinDiv Team will open there closed doors again and that you guys from Microsoft are allowed again to tell more about the roadmap and future releases.

Dirk

Nov 15, 2012 at 11:31 PM

Sorry, we are still working on getting a project site up for it on codeplex. We have been using a project name of Kona for the LOB guidance for Windows Store apps project, but just discovered today that is already taken on codeplex, so I guess we are named TBD at this point. Keep your eye's out for a blog post from Blaine Wastell in the next day or so outlining the roadmap for this project.

Nov 15, 2012 at 11:32 PM

Just to be clear, I'm not a Microsoft employee. I'm an independent consultant who is working with the p&p folks on the LOB guidance for Windows Store apps.

Nov 28, 2012 at 8:55 AM

Hi Blaine and Brian

any news on this subject? Is this the correct blog address to keep an eye on? http://blogs.msdn.com/b/blaine/

Felix

Dec 2, 2012 at 8:00 PM

Anyone has any idea when a NuGet package for Prism 4.5 will be available?

Dec 7, 2012 at 2:57 PM

For now Prism 4.5 should be available just for WPF on .NET 4.5 with Windows.Interactivity 4.5 etc

I don't care about Windows 8 RT and the store since our customers cannot run the software on RT anyway.

Dec 7, 2012 at 3:09 PM

I'd just like to emphasize that we are very interested in LOB guidance for Windows Store apps. The platform has great potential for LOB apps due to good touch support and other features.

Coordinator
Dec 13, 2012 at 10:11 PM
Edited Apr 24, 2013 at 7:06 PM
I just posted a blog about Prism for .NET 4.5 and guidance for developing Windows Store business apps. The CodePlex project is http://prismwindowsruntime.codeplex.com.

blaine
Dec 13, 2012 at 10:29 PM

Thanks, I'm excited about the Kona project!  

Coordinator
Apr 24, 2013 at 7:09 PM
We recently changed the name of Kona Guidance to Prism for Windows Runtime. I discussed this in my recent blog post.